[hobbit] Hobbit versus Unicenter/TNG
Back when we had an IBM mainframe, CA was desperately trying to find ways to "give" us Unicenter, until our VP told them that he'd drop them as an accepted vendor if he saw another proposal in the next six months.
So -- we never did Unicenter.
We did BMC Patrol on AIX -- and never could get viable alerting from the product.
I have yet to see ANY of the vendor-provided tools that work with a lightweight client for viewing the current status. Hobbit lets me check things with any browser, on any OS -- and when you've only got dial-up access to work with, this is *critical*. I don't have the time to load a big honkin' java application (tivoli) or an ugly X-windows app (BMC) over dialup to see what's down.
Big Brother and Hobbit and a handfull of home-brew scripts dropped BMC out of our shop and saved us over $40,000 per YEAR in licensing.
Tom Kauffman NIBCO, Inc
-----Original Message----- From: Henrik Stoerner [mailto:henrik at hswn.dk] Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 4:15 AM To: hobbit at hswn.dk Subject: [hobbit] Hobbit versus Unicenter/TNG
I'm currently arguing with some PHB's who insist that Unicenter/TNG is the "standard" monitoring tool and we're supposed to use that exclusively.
Since I have the users on my side I do expect to win that struggle, but if any of you have compared Hobbit with Unicenter/TNG I would be interested to hear about it. Especially features you've found that Hobbit has, but TNG doesn't. I know of quite a few, but any ammunition is welcome.
If you prefer, contact me directly instead of through the list.
Regards, Henrik
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Henrik,
I am so sorry to hear about your situation. I hope sanity will reign in the end. Here are some of my suggestions:
Don't immediately turn the issue into a technical battle of TNG vs. Hobbit. If you have the time, read "Getting to Yes" a book on negotiations. Start with identifying what "monitoring" is supposed to do in PHB-speak: maximize service availability to customers, provide technicians the ability to quickly diagnose problems, ensure the functionality of the environment after changes. The point being, try to establish the goals everyone can agree on. You will lose the PHB vs. technician fight based solely on "features."
Be prepared to accept using both tools is fine. Even recommend it, especially if the organization is prepared to do "cost-benefit" analysis for the effort with NPV or ROI. Practically speaking, running both tools together would be much better than just TNG.
Ask about the process to get hobbit on the "approved software" list. If your company has IT Governance, they might be a good spot to start.
Anticipate the issues the PHB will "throw at you." Sure hobbit is great, but what if you leave Henrik? No one else in the company/world knows hobbit like you, that creates risk to the organization. Big tools are "certified" for security, hobbit is a "bunch of people in their basements." Craft the replies in business and financial terms that are quantifiable. Yes, I am the author of hobbit, with a development and user community of over X,XXX. The code is written in C, a standard for all Computer Science programs, with XXX,XXX programmers in the world.
That's all for now. For the sake of the entire hobbit community, good luck!
Scott
On 2/7/07, Kauffman, Tom <KauffmanT at nibco.com> wrote:
Back when we had an IBM mainframe, CA was desperately trying to find ways to "give" us Unicenter, until our VP told them that he'd drop them as an accepted vendor if he saw another proposal in the next six months.
So -- we never did Unicenter.
We did BMC Patrol on AIX -- and never could get viable alerting from the product.
I have yet to see ANY of the vendor-provided tools that work with a lightweight client for viewing the current status. Hobbit lets me check things with any browser, on any OS -- and when you've only got dial-up access to work with, this is *critical*. I don't have the time to load a big honkin' java application (tivoli) or an ugly X-windows app (BMC) over dialup to see what's down.
Big Brother and Hobbit and a handfull of home-brew scripts dropped BMC out of our shop and saved us over $40,000 per YEAR in licensing.
Tom Kauffman NIBCO, Inc
-----Original Message----- From: Henrik Stoerner [mailto:henrik at hswn.dk] Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 4:15 AM To: hobbit at hswn.dk Subject: [hobbit] Hobbit versus Unicenter/TNG
I'm currently arguing with some PHB's who insist that Unicenter/TNG is the "standard" monitoring tool and we're supposed to use that exclusively.
Since I have the users on my side I do expect to win that struggle, but if any of you have compared Hobbit with Unicenter/TNG I would be interested to hear about it. Especially features you've found that Hobbit has, but TNG doesn't. I know of quite a few, but any ammunition is welcome.
If you prefer, contact me directly instead of through the list.
Regards, Henrik
To unsubscribe from the hobbit list, send an e-mail to hobbit-unsubscribe at hswn.dk
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the exclusive and confidential use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not read, distribute or take action in reliance upon this message. If you have received this in error, please notify us immediately by return email and promptly delete this message and its attachments from your computer system. We do not waive attorney-client or work product privilege by the transmission of this message.
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On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 08:01:08AM -0500, Scott Walters wrote:
Henrik,
I am so sorry to hear about your situation. I hope sanity will reign in the end. Here are some of my suggestions:
<big snip>
Thanks - I appreciate your comments, and they do match up pretty well with my own thoughts about how to tackle this.
I'm not particularly worried about it. This issue has been there ever since we started using BB almost 6 years ago. The only reason why it's on the agenda now is that I have a new boss who has decided that we should get this issue resolved once and for all - he will not accept that Hobbit has this "second class" status in our NOC.
And yes - this is all about politics. The Unicenter group is also the group responsible for manning our NOC - and given that it takes about 20 people to run Unicenter here versus 0.5 (me) to run Hobbit, they are somewhat reluctant to embrace it.
(The 0.5 is only for running Hobbit - developing Hobbit is another issue, but that happens mostly in my spare time).
You will lose the PHB vs. technician fight based solely on "features."
The only reason Hobbit exists is that I secured the support of some fairly high-up people as well as a lot of customer-contact people (and external customers, even) right from the start. When two of our top-3 customers insist on having access to Hobbit as a requirement for renewing their contracts, I have a pretty strong case.
When I do use the "feature" argument, I know I have to focus on the features that bosses understand. There are lots of neat tech stuff in Hobbit, but that doesn't sell Hobbit - the abundance of graphs and (SLA) reports do, as well as the positive feedback the boss gets from our customers.
- Be prepared to accept using both tools is fine.
That is what we've been doing so far. I've always insisted that the thing we can monitor with TNG *will* be monitored by TNG - e.g. we never put "disk" alerts on the Hobbit critical-systems view, because those are supposed to be handled by TNG. (Whether TNG actually detects the problem then is another matter entirely).
- Anticipate the issues the PHB will "throw at you." Sure hobbit is great, but what if you leave Henrik? No one else in the company/world knows hobbit like you, that creates risk to the organization.
This was/is a major reason for releasing Hobbit as Open Source. I frequentely point out how many people are downloading Hobbit, and the amount of traffic on the mailing list to show that it's "not just me in my basement". The list of companies using Hobbit that was put together last year is useful. And just a couple of days ago I received a mail from IBM, where they asked for permission to include some Hobbit documentation into one of their z/VM guides - this will also be handy to show that Hobbit is more than just my personal project.
For the sake of the entire hobbit community, good luck!
Thanks, I'll let you know how it works out.
Regards, Henrik
I'm not particularly worried about it. This issue has been there ever since we started using BB almost 6 years ago. The only reason why it's on the agenda now is that I have a new boss who has decided that we should get this issue resolved once and for all - he will not accept that Hobbit has this "second class" status in our NOC.
What is it about upper-management not embracing free-to-low-cost software that does the job better and more efficiently than high-priced, bloated commercial software?
And yes - this is all about politics. The Unicenter group is also the
group responsible for manning our NOC - and given that it takes about 20 people to run Unicenter here versus 0.5 (me) to run Hobbit, they are
somewhat reluctant to embrace it.
We occasionally run across the argument of whether we should use Hobbit or Sitescope (very much NOT freeware) to monitor the status of several of our websites. The argument that seems to come up frequently for us is the misinformation that Hobbit isn't giving accurate results, and either not paging out when it should, or paging out too often. This is almost entirely a political issue, since Sitescope is ALWAYS giving out false alerts.
- Be prepared to accept using both tools is fine.
That is what we've been doing so far. I've always insisted that the thing we can monitor with TNG *will* be monitored by TNG - e.g. we never put "disk" alerts on the Hobbit critical-systems view, because those are supposed to be handled by TNG. (Whether TNG actually detects the problem then is another matter entirely).
To Sitescope's credit, it does do website content checking fairly decently, out of the box. While I can get similar functionality from Hobbit, some of the more advanced content checks require external scripts to be written. But it also seems that Sitescope's configuration sometimes gets corrupted, and ends up sending out false alerts because even though the thresholds are set correctly, it is using some other values other than what the web interface shows.
It seems to be a common situation for multiple monitoring software to be used, at least partly because some people just refuse to switch to another (possibly better) monitoring solution.
- Anticipate the issues the PHB will "throw at you." Sure hobbit is
great, but what if you leave Henrik? No one else in the company/world knows hobbit like you, that creates risk to the organization.
This was/is a major reason for releasing Hobbit as Open Source. I frequentely point out how many people are downloading Hobbit, and the amount of traffic on the mailing list to show that it's "not just me in my basement". The list of companies using Hobbit that was put together last year is useful. And just a couple of days ago I received a mail from IBM, where they asked for permission to include some Hobbit documentation into one of their z/VM guides - this will also be handy to show that Hobbit is more than just my personal project.
In our case, there are occasional rumblings that since Hobbit isn't commercial software, we can't get guaranteed response times for support of the product. The ironic thing is, nearly all of the Open Source software we use provides FAR BETTER response times, and actually useful help from various mailing lists and other community support forums than any of the commercial products we use.
I am more or less turning into the resident Hobbit expert, and as I work with Hobbit more and more, I realize just how easy it is to maintain, and just how much you can do with it with just a little creativity in external script writing. While I do most of the modifications to the Hobbit configurations here, it wouldn't take much effort at all for someone else to pick up where I am. Between this mailing list and the Hobbit man & help pages, the information is far more readily accessible than any commercial software I've used.
And yes - this is all about politics. The Unicenter group is also the group responsible for manning our NOC - and given that it takes about 20 people to run Unicenter here versus 0.5 (me) to run Hobbit, they are somewhat reluctant to embrace it.
Figure out ways to explain how Hobbit will make their jobs and life better. Hobbit is better than XYZ won't be an effective "sell." Example: Could using Hobbit mean they get less phone calls in the middle of the night?
| Thanks, I'll let you know how it works out.
Cool. And if any of your bosses/decision makers play golf, if they ever make it to the NYC/Philly area, I'd be happy to take them out for 18.
My name is Scott, and I am a golfer.
Since a similar discussion is being held where I work. Never thought that would happen given the success we've had with Hobbit and the massive customizations I've added, but that is another discussion entirely.
Anyway, one of the useless stats that is being thrown about by a third party is the number of different data points they will monitor, and I was asked to provide a similar number of my own. I have about 9 custom scripts mixed up on the server and client sides, each of which gather anywhere from 4 to 40 data points per script.
Looking at the data under hobbitd, is there an easy way to determine how much data (in the form of individual data points going into an RRD file) monitored coming in from the clients? I found the network tests data under the bbtest column, but figuring out what really matters under the hobbitd column is a bit more challenging. Most of my client data comes in the "status" channel, but some is also going into the data channel.
If it helps at all, here are my current hobbitd stats:
Statistics for Hobbit daemon Up since 13-Feb-2007 07:59:08 (2 days, 00:30:01)
Incoming messages : 1980761
- status : 1694626
- combo : 240323
- page : 5924
- summary : 0
- data : 33464
- client : 1031
- notes : 0
- enable : 3
- disable : 19
- ack : 0
- config : 0
- query : 1160
- hobbitdboard : 2850
- hobbitdlog : 697
- drop : 8
- rename : 0
- dummy : 580
- ping : 0
- notify : 22
- schedule : 44
- download : 0
- Bogus/Timeouts : 10 Incoming messages/sec : 11 (average last 300 seconds)
status channel messages: 1691796 (1 readers) stachg channel messages: 3621 (1 readers) page channel messages: 2327 (1 readers) data channel messages: 33472 (1 readers) notes channel messages: 0 (0 readers) enadis channel messages: 0 (0 readers) client channel messages: 935 (1 readers) clichg channel messages: 0 (1 readers)
-- Tom Georgoulias Systems Engineer McClatchy Interactive tomg at mcclatchyinteractive.com
On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 08:39:33AM -0500, Tom Georgoulias wrote:
Anyway, one of the useless stats that is being thrown about by a third party is the number of different data points they will monitor, and I was asked to provide a similar number of my own. I have about 9 custom scripts mixed up on the server and client sides, each of which gather anywhere from 4 to 40 data points per script.
Looking at the data under hobbitd, is there an easy way to determine how much data (in the form of individual data points going into an RRD file) monitored coming in from the clients?
The "easiest" way is to look at the size of the RRD files. An RRD file has a fixed size, and a 2-dataset RRD file is double the size of a 1-dataset RRD file. So if you add up the size of all the RRD files and divide by the size of a 1-dataset RRD file (like the la.rrd files), you have the number of datasets you're tracking for graphs.
I found the network tests data under the bbtest column, but figuring out what really matters under the hobbitd column is a bit more challenging.
Most of my client data comes in the "status" channel, but some is also going into the data channel.
The only really interesting statistic in the "hobbitd" column is the "Incoming messages/sec" value: This tells you how many test results are being processed by Hobbit every second, so to your boss this would be your "sustained transactions/second" (TPS) number.
Another useless number to throw around is found on the "bbgen" column statistics: The "Status messages" number there are the total number of individual status "dots" on your web display: A "disk" status, a "memory" status, an "http" status and so on.
Regards, Henrik
On Wed, 2007-02-07 at 13:16 -0500, Kauffman, Tom wrote:
I have yet to see ANY of the vendor-provided tools that work with a lightweight client for viewing the current status. Hobbit lets me check things with any browser, on any OS
I've even written an app to display the red alerts on my Cisco IP phone! #!/usr/bin/perl
use Cisco::IPPhone; my $mytext = new Cisco::IPPhone;
my @redboard = bb localhost "hobbitdboard color=RED fields=hostname,testname";
my $niceline;
foreach my $red (@redboard) {
$niceline .= join(",",split(/\|/,$red))."\n";
};
$mytext->Text( { Title => "Red Alerts", Prompt => "Red Items in Hobbit", Text => $niceline}); $mytext->AddSoftKeyItem( { Name => "Update", URL => "SoftKey:Update", Position => "1" }); $mytext->AddSoftKeyItem( { Name => "Exit", URL => "SoftKey:Exit", Position => "2" }); print $mytext->Content;
I could, if I were willing to do a little bit of work, get it to acknowledge the alerts with the touch-screen... Let's see CA do that!
CA is the only "official" monitoring solution here too, but nobody has got it working. In the mean-time I have real-time displays of my hobbit system (and my hobbit-based bbmap) at the NOC.
-- Daniel J McDonald, CCIE # 2495, CISSP # 78281, CNX Austin Energy http://www.austinenergy.com
participants (6)
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dan.mcdonald@austinenergy.com
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gumby3203@gmail.com
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henrik@hswn.dk
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KauffmanT@nibco.com
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scott@PacketPushers.com
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tomg@mcclatchyinteractive.com