I think it's more than that, guys, (and I totally reject both your premise and your conclusions, Jim)

To be a viable, contributing member of any online "society", you also should offer something to the conversation.

Since those who are "newbies" haven't any "intellectual collateral" to add to the conversation, they take part in the conversation by understanding the syntax, vis a vis, knowing the very basics as outlined in the documentation.

If you come to the conversation wanting to do no footwork, not reading the documentation and asking to be spoon-fed all the answers, that is leaching.

Let me use an example.

If this were, say, a motorcycle enthusiast group. Now say, that everyone starts talking about leathers and the need for various materials as protective panels in leathers and the science behind all that. Now, let's say a new guy comes in and this particular motorcycle group has a wonderful glossary of terms, instructions on riding, mailing list history, and links to several of the technologies discussed on the group and asks on the list.. "What are leathers?".

Is the impetus on the group to say leathers are.... or, is it better citizenry to say "you know, we have a ton of information you should probably read before trying to take part in this conversation... maybe you should go do that."

In the motorcycle world, that might take the form of "piss off, newbie". It's just facts.

In our world, it's RTFM (and I use it for it's technological significance in our world. if you don't want to ready the fine manual, then don't. If you want to ascribe profanity to the term, then YOU have ascribed the profanity. This writer does not, keep those terms to yourself)

The POINT is that there are MANY avenues of documentation that we have for this group. Much too often these days on this list the questions are turning into "show me precisely how to do something that is clearly outlined in our documentation". We need to roll back for a minute as a community and determine whether that is where we want to take the group. If so, then perhaps this is not the place for me.

For instance, I had a problem with RRD not graphing properly. I went through our docs, and searched the mailing list. When I couldn't find the answers I was looking for, I went to the rrdtool website and looked for more information on the nature of how rrdtool makes graphs. I wanted to make sure i understood the entire workflow of how this stuff works both in and out of the Hobbit/Xymon framework to be sure that were I to come here and ask a question:

a) I did my homework, and the answer was not obviously staring me in the face in all the usual places b) I had not overlooked a conversation clearly listing the answer in the list archive c) I had not fatfingered something in RRD-land, and it would never work given the documentation available on RRDtool.

Then and only then would I consider posting a question and I would also outline all the things I'd read and done thus far looking for the answer, and then would pose my question. If the answer would be more documentation, I would gladly receive that and continue to try and educate myself.

Not once would I ever come to just have my question answered without doing any footwork of my own first.

"Just give me the answer" is never good citizenship, and should not be encouraged. From my very earliest dealings here on the list, I've tried to do so and I believe if you run a search, my contributions (even as a stone-cold newbie) speak for themselves.

We should each endeavor to reject the urge for laziness and do everything we can to all help each other as much as possible, but it should never be ok to spoon-feed anyone. That's my opinion.

Ok, I've said my piece. I'll crawl back in my home directory...

--j

On Mar 23, 2010, at 9:53 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

Well what he is saying is that if someone clicks "help" then "this" they would get the information without bothering anyone filling the inbox or interrupting the IRC conversation.

On 3/23/10, Smith, Jim <JMSmith at stvincenthealth.com> wrote:

...

Jerald,

I don't make many comments on this board anymore, but I want to chime-in on this.

I agree with what you say about people needing to read the documentation. However, I don't agree with your tone. Even the acronym "RTFM" is an insult, in my opinion.

We were all "newbies" at some point and probably asked some dumb questions ourselves.

Jim Smith SVHS Little Rock

-----Original Message----- From: Jerald Sheets [mailto:questy at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 8:17 PM To: hobbit at hswn.dk Subject: [hobbit] Sorry... I had to vent

Does anyone at all RTFM any more?

We have wikis, docs, a several-year mailing list archive, three wonderful software and addon repositories.

Still, we have questions that are in the man pages on the freaking Xymon menu and even in their own separate page on the Xymon help menu in the installation itself.

This group exists to help when you've reached a level of proficiency, and thing that aren't clearly spelled out in the docs are not working as expected, or there are little "gotchas" that you might need help with that we've all been through.

True, I'm the first person to grump at someone when they don't receive a newcomer in a friendly manner, but coming on here and asking questions that are clearly laid out in the docs is just plain lazy.

I wouldn't even let my teenagers get away with that.

Guys, if you have questions there is no one more ready than I to help you trudge through a problem. But when you don't so much as get into the docs and ferret out the basic functionality of the software, you really make it hard to even want to help you.

On your Xymon install: just mouse over the "Help" menu, and all your basic answers will be there. If you get into a hairy spot, bring it here and we can ll puzzle over it together.

(sorry... I had three separate people ask precisely the kind of question that showed they didn't want to do the basic footwork necessary to make their app work, and expected suppor to just do it all for them. They wouldn't even read the manual it took me weeks to put together and post on the company intranet.)

I actually heard the words today "I don't want to read that book" (22 pages, mind you) "I just want you to make it work."

It's a statistical package... you actually have to know basic statistics. They don't.

UGH!

Sorry again. A real RTFM moment for me.

--j To unsubscribe from the hobbit list, send an e-mail to hobbit-unsubscribe at hswn.dk

The information contained in this message is privileged and confidential information intended for the review and use of the individual and entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication or the information contained herein is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us.

To unsubscribe from the hobbit list, send an e-mail to hobbit-unsubscribe at hswn.dk

-- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill

To unsubscribe from the hobbit list, send an e-mail to hobbit-unsubscribe at hswn.dk

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Vernon Everett wrote:

Hi all

Without pointing any fingers, I would like offer some advice. Let's be nice.

Yes, I agree, some questions can be annoying, and have been asked and answered over and over, but we need to remember we were all ignorant once. Yes, There are multiple repositories of knowledge, but that is also part of the problem. Where to look. I recall a few years back, I was looking for an SMF file for Hobbit on Solaris 10. I searched, and couldn't find one, so I wrote my own and proudly posted it to the list, only to be told one already existed, and was available in the only place I didn't look. (It's still there http://xymonton.trantor.org/doku.php/addons:hobbitsmf - Thanks for that one Galen.)

I always think of list members in terms of profieciency, and measure it by the questions and sometimes the answers I see. Then I imagine the proficiency on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is a total noob, 10 would probably be Henrik. If you think of yourself as, for the purpose of this demonstration, a level 8 hobbit user, then you would be stuck on most questions coming from most level 9 or 10 users, but quite capable of solving problems from a level 1 to 7. However, the level 1 to 5 questions appear trivial to you, and annoy you. Ignore them. A level 3 question is obviously a challenge to a level 3 person, but a delight for a level 4 or 5 to answer, and thus contribute constructively to the list. By the same token, even level 1 questions have their value. Not only do they allow moderate level users to actively participate in the list, and in so doing, reinforce their own knowledge, more importantly, it makes the level 1 noob feel that this is a friendly group of nice people willing to help them get started. There is nothing worse than trying to get involved in something that looks good, interesting and fun, only to be told to fsck-off! Some of us may have experienced that in life, some not - I can assure you though, it's not a good feeling.

In the past, when the question has been trivial, and covered in the man pages or similar documents, I have not given the answer, but pointed them to the respective page or mail archive entry. The "teach a man to fish" approach. (Search for my name and "endian" for an example of this in the mail archive)

If a question frustrates you, hit the delete key. Somebody else will respond. If a user frustrates you, set up a filter. That's why we have them. But lets be nice, even to those who might not deserve it. Besides the reasons listed above, it's just good karma.

Let me end by saying, that we should terminate this thread very quickly, before we have a flame war.

An excellent response. Having been one of the last people to ask a question before this thread appeared, I couldn't help but look over my question and wonder a bit if it was directed at me (I've decided it wasn't as I read the documentation and, technically, it's incorrect).

I'd never thought of it the way you describe it, though... I'm sort of a Xymon noob (I've had several years of experience on Big Brother and only most of it transfers), and I've answered a few simple questions on here and gotten something out of it. And for the most extreme, clearly isn't even aware of the manual, I've sent an RTFM. Stupid questions often get ignored, but often that drives someone to the manual without any effort.

A good natural system, I guess, if one doesn't read into it too hard. :)

---- _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ |Y#| | | |\/| | \ |\ | | |Ryan Novosielski - Systems Programmer II |$&| |__| | | |__/ | \| _| |novosirj at umdnj.edu - 973/972.0922 (2-0922) \__/ Univ. of Med. and Dent.|IST/CST - NJMS Medical Science Bldg - C630 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkupsvEACgkQmb+gadEcsb4vYACggZEIs4lM3dYPT1hhBHvUnWrn WpMAoJICsVyV37iu3CqGXl57MeGOeSrj =Di7O -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Wednesday, 24 March 2010 07:22:08 Vernon Everett wrote:

Yes, I agree, some questions can be annoying, and have been asked and answered over and over, but we need to remember we were all ignorant once. Yes, There are multiple repositories of knowledge, but that is also part of the problem. Where to look. I recall a few years back, I was looking for an SMF file for Hobbit on Solaris 10. I searched, and couldn't find one, so I wrote my own and proudly posted it to the list, only to be told one already existed, and was available in the only place I didn't look. (It's still there http://xymonton.trantor.org/doku.php/addons:hobbitsmf - Thanks for that one Galen.)

IMHO, this should be added to svn so it will ship in future releases. I will do it if someone confirms it works correctly.

Additionally, I think more needs to be done regarding maintenance of extension scripts etc. to reduce the amount of effort in getting a setup more comprehensive. However, my more concrete reply to the "is Hobbit maintained" thread doesn't seem to make it to the list, even after 4 tries over a few weeks ...

Regards, Buchan

Hi all,

I agree with Jerald, but I'd like to moderate his speechs. On my side, I sometime asked dummy questions, because I didn't know where to find the answers. Mailing list archive, Xymon UI help, man pages, FAQ & Tips on xymon homepage... Many sources of informations.

And as Maik said, we all are not english natural speechers. On my side, I don't have to much difficulties to understand, but it's not always true. So, I think 2 things can be done : -Having a central information source, and several language in it.

In order to centralize informations I think a wiki should be a good approach. We could paste all informations from UI help, manpages, and FAQ & Tips, then actualise them.

I don't have much free time, but I can spend some hours to translate all informations in french. I could be usefull to have german, and some asian language (japanese, chinese...). As I don't know any word of theses languages, I can't do it myself.

Regards, Damien

About 2 years ago, somebody might recall the exact date, I do not, I grabbed a single month's worth of mailing list, and examined every posting.

From them, I extracted and distilled each question and useful answer into a Q&A document. Something along the lines of a FAQ. I posted it on the list, and invited others to grab a month and do likewise. I was overwhelmed with apathy. :-( On a positive note, TJ added my Q&As to the Wiki. (Thanks TJ) See here http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/System_Monitoring_with_Xymon/Other_Docs/FAQ I think I was responsible for some of these. TJ - can you remember? My most (in)famous one being the one about "when is the next version due" That certainly set the cat amongst the pigeons. :-)

You don't need to be a Jedi Master level to distil posts into basic Q&As. Anybody can do it. Even me. Grab a month, announce it, and let rip. I will make it easy. Add your name to a month below and repost (to prevent duplicate effort), and just do it.

02/2010 - 01/2010 - 12/2009 - 11/2009 - 10/2009 - 09/2009 - 08/2009 - 07/2009 - 06/2009 - 05/2009 - 04/2009 - 03/2009 - 02/2009 - 01/2009 - And there are more. Don't be shy. :-)

Cheers V

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Jerald Sheets <questy at gmail.com> wrote:

I think Damien makes a good point. It appears, from his message, that he doesn't even know about the wiki.

Yes, there's a wiki.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/System_Monitoring_with_Hobbit

It's been my answer a number of times to very simple questions. It contains many of the things you need to get a basic install up and running and even contains some tutorials at writing your own checks in the NCV/RRD piece.

And Damien, even though you're not an "English natural speecher", your questions always show that you have at least made an effort to look around first. Now you have a wiki to add to your list of things!

Damien is a regular, contributing member of this mailing list, and I think gets precisely what I'm talking about. He goes out, looks, reads, and offers the knowledge he has already found then asks his question in light of what he's already learned on his own. That is *NOT* what I'm talking about.

I think this has been a good discussion all around. I went back and looked at the histories of several regular members here, and everyone is quite a good citizen. We seem to have some pop in from time to time and ask a question that clearly betrays they didn't so much as look at anything and just want to be spoon fed the answers every step of the way. That's what I was talking about last night.

In ANY event, let's keep this puppy rolling. I don't think there's anything out there better than Xymon. Let's all keep working to make it even better every single day.

--j

On Mar 24, 2010, at 4:37 AM, doctor at makelofine.org wrote:

...

Hi all,

I agree with Jerald, but I'd like to moderate his speechs. On my side, I sometime asked dummy questions, because I didn't know where to find the answers. Mailing list archive, Xymon UI help, man pages, FAQ & Tips on xymon homepage... Many sources of informations.

And as Maik said, we all are not english natural speechers. On my side, I don't have to much difficulties to understand, but it's not always true. So, I think 2 things can be done : -Having a central information source, and several language in it.

In order to centralize informations I think a wiki should be a good approach. We could paste all informations from UI help, manpages, and FAQ & Tips, then actualise them.

I don't have much free time, but I can spend some hours to translate all informations in french. I could be usefull to have german, and some asian language (japanese, chinese...). As I don't know any word of theses languages, I can't do it myself.

Regards, Damien

To unsubscribe from the hobbit list, send an e-mail to hobbit-unsubscribe at hswn.dk

To unsubscribe from the hobbit list, send an e-mail to hobbit-unsubscribe at hswn.dk

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 06:20, Vernon Everett <everett.vernon at gmail.com> wrote:

About 2 years ago, somebody might recall the exact date, I do not, I grabbed a single month's worth of mailing list, and examined every posting. From them, I extracted and distilled each question and useful answer into a Q&A document. Something along the lines of a FAQ. [snip] You don't need to be a Jedi Master level to distil posts into basic Q&As. Anybody can do it. Even me.

A reminder: contributions/edits to the wiki text must be released under the CC-BY-SA and GFDL licenses. So the distillation process requires reinterpreting (if not just rewording) if the author hasn't released the text in CC-BY-SA; see http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use for more info. Many messages here have something like an explicit .signature that forbids redistribution beyond the "intended recipient". Some text can be verbatim per "fair use", but only some.

When I signed up for this list in 2005, I didn't see any notice about contributions to the list being additionally licensed under other licenses. Maybe that has changed over the 5 years.

I've made lots of edits to the wiki, and I'd hate to see them reverted due to mislicensing. (is that a word?)

Bravo!

-----Original Message----- From: White, Bruce [mailto:bewhite at fellowes.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 11:02 AM To: hobbit at hswn.dk Subject: RE: [hobbit] Sorry... I had to vent

My $.02

I think Vernon speaks a great truth. I would rate myself maybe a 5 on knowledge of hobbit/xymon when placed on his scale. I try to answer questions when I can and am happy when I can help. However, in my shop, I'm the expert. I explain to people here from management to help desk guys how this software works. I get the kind of basic questions, answered by reading what's behind the help menu option, all the time.

I have posted questions here which have resulted in responses like RTFM or "Google is your friend." This is after I have searched the available documentation and this list's archives. The vast majority of the time, it is also after trying multiple adjustments to see if I can figure out a solution. Alas, we are all human. Sometimes we miss things, or don't understand the documentation as written. I appreciate when someone takes to the time to answer that question, despite it being documented.

I was born into an English speaking world and despite a couple years of German in school, don't speak any other language. I can't even imagine trying to digest and understand some of the complexity of this software using nothing but documentation in language I don't speak. So I have a great deal of sympathy for those faced with that prospect.

I confess that I have had bad reactions to some of the questions posted here. I understand the want to "slap down" those who wish to have things "handed to them on a silver platter." I have wanted to post "Hey buddy, do the basic work before posting!" However, this is not productive nor civil.

Vernon is right. Answer the questions you want. Ignore those you choose. And if a poster really bugs you, use an ignore rule to never see that person's posts again.

Just yesterday someone asked me why Henrik just gave his code away. Why didn't he keep it to himself and charge people to use it. That is what the Bill Gates of the world would have done. I can't speak for Henrik, but I'm glad he choose a different approach. As a result, many minds have made hobbit/xymon a better product. And if the price is reading a few "lame" questions, then it is a small price to pay.

.....Bruce






 


 
 

Bruce White Senior Enterprise Systems Engineer | Phone: 630-671-5169 | Fax: 630-893-1648 | bewhite at fellowes.com | http://www.fellowes.com/ Disclaimer: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you. Fellowes, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: doctor at makelofine.org [mailto:doctor at makelofine.org] Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:38 AM To: hobbit at hswn.dk Subject: Re: [hobbit] Sorry... I had to vent

Hi all,

I agree with Jerald, but I'd like to moderate his speechs. On my side, I sometime asked dummy questions, because I didn't know where to find the answers. Mailing list archive, Xymon UI help, man pages, FAQ & Tips on xymon homepage... Many sources of informations.

And as Maik said, we all are not english natural speechers. On my side, I don't have to much difficulties to understand, but it's not always true. So, I think 2 things can be done : -Having a central information source, and several language in it.

In order to centralize informations I think a wiki should be a good approach. We could paste all informations from UI help, manpages, and FAQ & Tips, then actualise them.

I don't have much free time, but I can spend some hours to translate all informations in french. I could be usefull to have german, and some asian language (japanese, chinese...). As I don't know any word of theses languages, I can't do it myself.

Regards, Damien

To unsubscribe from the hobbit list, send an e-mail to hobbit-unsubscribe at hswn.dk

To unsubscribe from the hobbit list, send an e-mail to hobbit-unsubscribe at hswn.dk

The information contained in this message is privileged and confidential information intended for the review and use of the individual and entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication or the information contained herein is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us.

On 3/23/2010 10:20 PM, Jerald Sheets wrote:

I think it's more than that, guys, (and I totally reject both your premise and your conclusions, Jim)

To be a viable, contributing member of any online "society", you also should offer something to the conversation.

Since those who are "newbies" haven't any "intellectual collateral" to add to the conversation, they take part in the conversation by understanding the syntax, vis a vis, knowing the very basics as outlined in the documentation.

If you come to the conversation wanting to do no footwork, not reading the documentation and asking to be spoon-fed all the answers, that is leaching.

Let me use an example.

If this were, say, a motorcycle enthusiast group. Now say, that everyone starts talking about leathers and the need for various materials as protective panels in leathers and the science behind all that. Now, let's say a new guy comes in and this particular motorcycle group has a wonderful glossary of terms, instructions on riding, mailing list history, and links to several of the technologies discussed on the group and asks on the list.. "What are leathers?".

Is the impetus on the group to say leathers are.... or, is it better citizenry to say "you know, we have a ton of information you should probably read before trying to take part in this conversation... maybe you should go do that."

In the motorcycle world, that might take the form of "piss off, newbie". It's just facts.

In our world, it's RTFM (and I use it for it's technological significance in our world. if you don't want to ready the fine manual, then don't. If you want to ascribe profanity to the term, then YOU have ascribed the profanity. This writer does not, keep those terms to yourself)

The POINT is that there are MANY avenues of documentation that we have for this group. Much too often these days on this list the questions are turning into "show me precisely how to do something that is clearly outlined in our documentation". We need to roll back for a minute as a community and determine whether that is where we want to take the group. If so, then perhaps this is not the place for me.

For instance, I had a problem with RRD not graphing properly. I went through our docs, and searched the mailing list. When I couldn't find the answers I was looking for, I went to the rrdtool website and looked for more information on the nature of how rrdtool makes graphs. I wanted to make sure i understood the entire workflow of how this stuff works both in and out of the Hobbit/Xymon framework to be sure that were I to come here and ask a question:

a) I did my homework, and the answer was not obviously staring me in the face in all the usual places b) I had not overlooked a conversation clearly listing the answer in the list archive c) I had not fatfingered something in RRD-land, and it would never work given the documentation available on RRDtool.

Then and only then would I consider posting a question and I would also outline all the things I'd read and done thus far looking for the answer, and then would pose my question. If the answer would be more documentation, I would gladly receive that and continue to try and educate myself.

Not once would I ever come to just have my question answered without doing any footwork of my own first.

"Just give me the answer" is never good citizenship, and should not be encouraged. From my very earliest dealings here on the list, I've tried to do so and I believe if you run a search, my contributions (even as a stone-cold newbie) speak for themselves.

We should each endeavor to reject the urge for laziness and do everything we can to all help each other as much as possible, but it should never be ok to spoon-feed anyone. That's my opinion.

Ok, I've said my piece. I'll crawl back in my home directory...

--j

One of the mailing lists I'm on - forget which one - actually has a boilerplate that says 'Read this: http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html before posting'.

Good advice, IMHO...

-- tim --

Tim Boyer Chief Technical Officer Denman Tire Corporation

On Wed, March 24, 2010 12:17, Tim Boyer wrote:

One of the mailing lists I'm on - forget which one - actually has a boilerplate that says 'Read this: http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html before posting'.

Good advice, IMHO...

An excellent piece that could be used in the boilerplate for most forums/lists. For someone who can sometimes come off as quite nearly barking mad, Eric has written some seminal works in the cultural literature of tech.

Of course, I wouldn't use that epithet to his face. He has two or three black belts and a fondness for sidearms.....

Are you from Richmond Indiana?

On 3/23/10, Xymon User in Richmond <hobbit at epperson.homelinux.net> wrote:

On Tue, March 23, 2010 21:16, Jerald Sheets wrote:

...

Does anyone at all RTFM any more?

We have wikis, docs, a several-year mailing list archive, three wonderful software and addon repositories.

Still, we have questions that are in the man pages on the freaking Xymon menu and even in their own separate page on the Xymon help menu in the installation itself.

This group exists to help when you've reached a level of proficiency, and thing that aren't clearly spelled out in the docs are not working as expected, or there are little "gotchas" that you might need help with that we've all been through.

True, I'm the first person to grump at someone when they don't receive a newcomer in a friendly manner, but coming on here and asking questions that are clearly laid out in the docs is just plain lazy.

You're certainly at least as entitled to your rant as the rantees are to ask questions that show that they're either lazy or stupid. And I think you've done it in the right way, expressing the general issue without pointing a finger at specific posts, something I don't always have the good grace to avoid. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming....

To unsubscribe from the hobbit list, send an e-mail to hobbit-unsubscribe at hswn.dk

-- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill